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Thread: Unstoppable vs adrenaline catalyst and movement restriction

  1. #1
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    Unstoppable vs adrenaline catalyst and movement restriction

    Hi,

    Description of the bug : The adrenaline catalyst removes any movement restriction visible in decision phase* and let you move normally. The unstoppable effect gained in most cases by an ability doesn’t do that.

    * slow in the case of "slow til the end of the next turn" or self-infliged knockback like Elle's ultimate.

    Frequency : 100% if a few parameters are met.
    It potentially impacts every freelancer.

    The easiest way to reproduce this bug :
    1) Turn n : use fade catalyst
    2) Turn n+1 : use unstop ability, see where you can go then use unstop ability + adrenaline and see where you can go.

    More comprehensive analysis :
    Context / what this bug is about :
    1) The unstoppable effect gained by yourself or a teammate using a specific ability
    2) The unstoppable effect gained by using the adrenaline catalyst
    3) the movements you can do in the decision phase in 1 general situation and a specific one :
    a. when you start the round being slowed (after using the fade catalyst or being hit by an ability in the previous turn which can “slow til end of next turn”)
    b. when you play as Elle and you use your ult

    Case by case analysis on the basis that you are using a non-free ability or a classic movement restrictive ability and you have no haste :
    1) and 3) a) you can move 2 squares away
    2) and 3) a) you can move 4 squares away
    1) and 3) b) you can’t move at all (but you are not knock back)
    2) and 3) b) you can move 4 squares away

    Non exhaustive list of freelancers concerned with the unstop mod* :
    Finn (bubble), Helio (black hole / ult), Meridian (ult), Orion (Fate Transfer), Quark (radiate for an ally), Brynn (shield), Magnus (ult), some other freelancers

    Non-concerned freelancer so far :
    Aurora
    Rampart (don’t know why, but using Unstoppable force when you are slowed has the exact same effect than using Unstoppable force + adrenaline catalyst).

    *I did not test for all freelancers (but this issue has been verified on Finn, Meridian, Orion).

    One possible fix (credits to CommissarTyr#5875 for this idea) :
    It’s to let you path past your limited allowance (as if you were under haste effect) but move only according to limited allowance. This also has the benefit to make the haste mod given by an ability better than an “anti-slow” mod (because right now, if an ally gives you haste, you can’t move past you non-haste allowance so it is only useful if you are slow the same turn as the haste “cancels” the slow).
    The drawback of this fix is to make things less clear for the user to see where he can really move.


    I hope this helps.

    EDIT : Aurora paralazer with the unstoppable mod works as intended.

  2. #2
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    Im a bit confused by the post. As far as i can tell unstop and adrenaline works properly

  3. #3
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    Adrenaline after a fade will not remove the slow since it affects charater the turn before. It does not counter debuffs from previous turn if thats what you are referring to.

    I normally run elle with unstop on her ult to begin with since her ult knocksback and if elle also goes flying she often dosen't have a good shot next turn or is left in a bad position.

    Not sure why you would ever use unstop and adrenaline on same lancer the same turn since they both do the same thing. Its like using a might cata when you already have might. It only applies once.

    I would like to see slows and mights changed a bit. As it stands now if you have lets say might on your lancer and someone hits you with a weak it puts you to normal even if you have a chance to might on top of that you will stll only have reg damage

    In other words they are currently able to cancel each other but you cant overbuff to negate

    I would like to see them stack same turn

    IE you have might and brynn hits you with a weak but at the same time helio sheilds you with a might shield you should still be mighted. As it is now you just have reg damage

  4. #4
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    Hi Ecoclone, ty for your feedback :

    "Adrenaline after a fade will not remove the slow since it affects charater the turn before. It does not counter debuffs from previous turn if thats what you are referring to."

    it's exactly what I'm referring to, when you start a turn being slowed in decision mod (ability with "slow until the end of next turn", fade catalyst is the comnon of this kind of ability). I invite you to do the test, I know who you are and I've a lot of respect for you but I think you are wrong.

    The first time I've discovered this bug was after a fade with Orion turn X. I start turn X+1 being slowed, I use fate transfer with the unstoppable mod on a mate and I was able to move 2 squares away. I tried for whatever reason to use adrenaline + my fate transfer with unstoppable mod and I was able to move 4 squares away this time. Double unstoppable is stupid, I know but the fact that using FT with unstop mod didn't cancel my slow was a bit odd to me. I did try this because I was discussing with my team about using adrenaline after a fade and doing a full move (8 squares vs 4 if you do not use adrenaline).

    I invite you to do the test, go to practice, fade turn 1, use paralazer, bubble or whatever which gives you unstoppable / do the exact same thing with adrenaline + another ability to be in the same condition (1 non-free action + unstop) and you'll see the difference.

    ---------

    "I normally run elle with unstop on her ult to begin with since her ult knocksback and if elle also goes flying she often dosen't have a good shot next turn or is left in a bad position."

    I was using the cover reduction mod in this case and it was my second ult with Elle. My teammate with Finn used his bubble with unstop mod on me. I was not knockback but I was unable to move. If I would have used adrenaline I would have been able to move. In both case I was unstoppable. My team asked me why I didn't move, I explain the situation, we did it again in custom games and it was the exact same result.

    ---
    "Not sure why you would ever use unstop and adrenaline on same lancer the same turn since they both do the same thing. Its like using a might cata when you already have might. It only applies once. "

    I agree, it's completely stupid but right now, in some cases, they don't do the same thing. I think the comparison with might is not totally fair because now, you can "stack" might (it's always 25% more dmg but you don't use two mights the same turn, you are able to use it 2 turns consecutively like with an echo boost). It's what I've heard, I didn't try this.

    ---
    "I would like to see slows and mights changed a bit. As it stands now if you have lets say might on your lancer and someone hits you with a weak it puts you to normal even if you have a chance to might on top of that you will stll only have reg damage

    In other words they are currently able to cancel each other but you cant overbuff to negate

    I would like to see them stack same turn

    IE you have might and brynn hits you with a weak but at the same time helio sheilds you with a might shield you should still be mighted. As it is now you just have reg damage"

    Not exactly related to my topic but it's an interesting idea as long as you're not able to get a "super" might (in other words, 2 might + 1 weak = 25% more damage / 2 might and no weak = 25% damage).

    PS : English is not my first language, I'm sorry if I seem to be rude, it's not the case at all.

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  6. #6
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    I confirm the bug with Orion.

    I was not knockback but I was unable to move.
    This is expected, because your freelancer wasn't the one applying the buff, so you weren't able to input any movement during the decision phase.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujo View Post
    I confirm the bug with Orion.

    This is expected, because your freelancer wasn't the one applying the buff, so you weren't able to input any movement during the decision phase.
    I agree this is perfectly understandable but for me, it's not expected, it's not the way it should work. If you give haste directly to a mate with Su-Ren Spirit Bend (there a mod for this), it should work in any case and not only to negate a slow (because right now, it's what this mod is doing if you use it directly on a mate).

    It's not expected because it creates a stronger version of a buff (a haste > anti-slow), (an unstoppable which allows you to move normally > an unstoppable which allows you to move half the distance or not at all in the case of Elle's ult), ...

  8. #8
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    Rather than say it's a stronger version of a buff, I'd say it is stronger to apply unstoppable or haste to yourself (where it effectively happens during decision phase) than it is to apply it to an ally (where it effectively happens in a later phase.) This is similar to how Rampart's shield is stronger when it is activated in Prep Phase than when it's activated in Dash Phase. Or how a health powerup on the ground is more powerful when collected in the Dash or Knockback phase (where they can prevent death) than it is when collected in the Move phase (where they cannot.)

    (Practically speaking, it's the only way it can work, since otherwise the movement you can enter will depend on the abilities your teammates have selected. What do you do if they cancel their selections? How do you communicate that now you can enter a move where before you could not?)

    But this is not what's happening with Orion, that seems like it's just a bug.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujo View Post
    Rather than say it's a stronger version of a buff, I'd say it is stronger to apply unstoppable or haste to yourself (where it effectively happens during decision phase) than it is to apply it to an ally (where it effectively happens in a later phase.) This is similar to how Rampart's shield is stronger when it is activated in Prep Phase than when it's activated in Dash Phase. Or how a health powerup on the ground is more powerful when collected in the Dash or Knockback phase (where they can prevent death) than it is when collected in the Move phase (where they cannot.)

    (Practically speaking, it's the only way it can work, since otherwise the movement you can enter will depend on the abilities your teammates have selected. What do you do if they cancel their selections? How do you communicate that now you can enter a move where before you could not?)

    But this is not what's happening with Orion, that seems like it's just a bug.
    Not only Orion, see my screenshots for Finn, I didn't try with all freelancers who have an unstoppable but it's possible more are concerned (Meridian is concerned, it's sure).

    What if they cancel ? My solution is to be able to plan your move as if you have haste, if he cancels, you do a normal move (planning vs moving). It's like what happened if I do a normal move but an opponent slows me this turn.

  10. #10
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    It does seem a bit odd to me since they are the same things really. I try my best to stay outa those situations.

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