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Thread: Khita needs some balancing.

  1. #1

    Khita needs some balancing.

    Khita heal potential is too strong along with her kit. She looks to me overwhelming.

    She's straight S tier as every of her ability are way too strong. She jumps further than suren, her shield is stronger than Finn (Some ppl thinks it is not stronger than Finn but that weak makes it way more impactful to me), heals more than aurora, CC more than any other freelancers, do more damage than any support, has a 9 tile range and can go through cover, body block and can play around walls.

    I don't get the specifity of Khita because she's just way too strong. There's no reason to pick another support over Khita at the moment. She has a super strong ability every single turn and it denies momentum times. I hope you'll do something before PPL starts. Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Not really. She's a good hybrid and she's got more tools to keep herself than all the other supports, but her heal is enemy dependent. you only heal if the enemy let's you heal. In hihgh level play and tournaments it has been fairly telegraphed. You can do a lot to deny them healing through pressure or dashing.

    Common situations she's got put in are.

    -Team is too low to stay and do damage to acquire the heal.
    -Heal target dashes to deny heal.
    -If they want the heal to be reliable, they have to put it on a suboptimal target.
    + to above - You can't actually target someone who matters.

    She's objectively solid/strong.. She's not broken, she's good in pub games. She's no Quark, she has downsides. The higher the play level get's the less effective she becomes as a support by herself. She's easy to abuse just a little hard to kill :P

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerodon View Post
    Not really. She's a good hybrid and she's got more tools to keep herself than all the other supports, but her heal is enemy dependent. you only heal if the enemy let's you heal. In hihgh level play and tournaments it has been fairly telegraphed. You can do a lot to deny them healing through pressure or dashing.

    Common situations she's got put in are.

    -Team is too low to stay and do damage to acquire the heal.
    -Heal target dashes to deny heal.
    -If they want the heal to be reliable, they have to put it on a suboptimal target.
    + to above - You can't actually target someone who matters.

    She's objectively solid/strong.. She's not broken, she's good in pub games. She's no Quark, she has downsides. The higher the play level get's the less effective she becomes as a support by herself. She's easy to abuse just a little hard to kill :P
    The problem with the "reliability argument" here is twofold:
    1) The skill has a two turn duration. You have to deny not once, but twice.
    2) It's a damn free action, with a lowish CD to boot. It's not exactly something you have to commit to at a clutch moment.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by FogRaider View Post
    The problem with the "reliability argument" here is twofold:
    1) The skill has a two turn duration. You have to deny not once, but twice.
    2) It's a damn free action, with a lowish CD to boot. It's not exactly something you have to commit to at a clutch moment.
    But in high level play that's way less of an issue. The obvious target knows they're the obvious target. Sure you can use that argument, it's all situational. But the likely scenario is
    1. Khita marks
    2. Target dashes to deny and trade continues, except the enemy team loses the trade because they're all wasting shots on a dashing target
    3. Enemy is unable to to hit target due to A. Positioning relative to dash location B. Safe enough to stay and hit them if they even can.

    So you either have to choose a sub-optimal target for reliability or plan ahead. Enemy dependence is a large risk in this game. When your enemy has control of your biggest benefit you have a rough time against better players.

    Average players have a harder time with target and threat recognition so it isn't nearly as much of an issue for non-coordinated play.

  5. #5
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    I dont see to much of a problem with her. Her heal and ult are good but can be avoided if playing well. I personally have not had a hard time against her but i have a habit of avoiding get shot most of the time. She can easily be taken out in a round or to if she is caught off guard or with bad positioning

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerodon View Post
    But in high level play that's way less of an issue. The obvious target knows they're the obvious target. Sure you can use that argument, it's all situational. But the likely scenario is
    1. Khita marks
    2. Target dashes to deny and trade continues, except the enemy team loses the trade because they're all wasting shots on a dashing target
    3. Enemy is unable to to hit target due to A. Positioning relative to dash location B. Safe enough to stay and hit them if they even can.

    So you either have to choose a sub-optimal target for reliability or plan ahead. Enemy dependence is a large risk in this game. When your enemy has control of your biggest benefit you have a rough time against better players.

    Average players have a harder time with target and threat recognition so it isn't nearly as much of an issue for non-coordinated play.
    I take issue with your perception of how high level play works, but ignoring that for now.

    Here's the thing; it's a thing I've said many times in many games. Existence of counterplay =/= balance. You have to look at how much each side commits to get a certain outcome, and how many options you're effectively cutting off, in addition to the sum total of the exchange.

    Khita pays: A 4 turn CD free action that can reveal on mod.
    Target pays: A dash, literally the most valuable resource in Atlas.

    Khita has: No pressure to slam the mark ASAP, nor on the most obvious target.
    Target has: Whatever pressure existed before, plus another 25 health swing per threat.

    You can say counterplay all day, but you have to realize we're talking about players at their own skill level. We're not talking about a "herpaderp" Khita automatically going for a mark on the Grey with dash up who's in the center of the team with bird in a safe place. A player isn't automatically an idiot just because they play an extremely powerful character. Further, using blasts on a dodging target is already as much of a waste as it is without the mark; the only additional thing you're "losing" for poor target choices is the first half of the duration on the mark. A smart Khita will do her half in the mindgames too, and she arguably has more psychological tools in that fight than her opponent does.

    In fact, I'd be willing to say the only real mitigating factor to Khita's mark's strength at high level would be the fact that teams will over spread out wider in that meta - except:
    1) That's been proven to be more of a style of many teams rather than a true meta.
    2) The REST of Khita's kit tends to play really quite well in spread-out games.

    Anyway, none of that's a personal attack or anything. Maybe Sepheal or someone will poke their head into the thread at some point; I know I saw him playing some Khita fairly recently.

  7. #7
    Another issue is the enemy team can body block your attack to deny healing. Happened to me in a match yesterday as Zuki. Enemy player in the open with the heal target, they dashed the first turn, I went to attack the second only to have Asana dash in front of me to block my shot. No heal.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by FogRaider View Post
    I take issue with your perception of how high level play works, but ignoring that for now.
    FYI Kerodon is on OutPlayed. Won the last Prep Phase tournament.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by FogRaider View Post
    I take issue with your perception of how high level play works, but ignoring that for now.

    Anyway, none of that's a personal attack or anything. Maybe Sepheal or someone will poke their head into the thread at some point; I know I saw him playing some Khita fairly recently.
    Read the following quote for context :P Point being, I've won tournaments, I think I know what I'm talking about with high level play aha.

    I appreciate the debate :3 No offense taken.

    I can't tell you how games work for the average player because what the average player does is really inoptimal because most people don't have the experience and lack access to necessary communication to make the perfect plays.

    What I gave you was the experiences I've had with her in high level play and especially in tournament settings (the week she was released there was a tournament where she was allowed and no team won with her because this is exactly what happened.) They had time to get comfortable with her and even was bugged for +25 2 turn heals. Still no team won with her against us and these teams were no pushovers.

    I don't know how to really argue with you, mostly because in theory you're really spot on. She has all the tools to be excellent but the reality is that is how it works in a competitive setting.
    You either pick a meh target to guarantee the heal, you hold it and bluff and hope you can mark them after dash, or you TRY to put it on the best target and hope they stay, and if they don't you put yourselves at risk to try and get it next turn if you're even safe enough to at that point which you likely aren't because you lost a huge trade. Sometimes things work out and you get what you want but that seems to be the minority. Too many mind games.

    Existence of counter play is absolutely not evidence of balance you're correct. You just have to play the mindgame harder than they do and be in their heads to an extent that is overly difficult against players who are unpredictable due to lack of / wealth of game sense. She's fine, and she's good, and she's mechanically and numerically solid, but she has to really work to use what she has effectively. I'm not trying to argue that she's anything but strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vostok View Post
    FYI Kerodon is on OutPlayed. Won the last Prep Phase tournament.
    Vexed won last one, we've won a few ESL weeklys and Finals. but yea you got it.
    Bonus points, Sepheal is now a member of our team

  10. #10
    I think the combination of all her ability and her range is too much. The heal is too strong to be a simple extra ability. I know you can play minds games but still it procs the same turn it is activated and forces someone to dash or to get out of the game for two turns, also you can mod it with a reveal and with all the abilities that go through walls, it's fairly easy to get that 25 health on small maps. It is by far the strongest extra in the game imo.

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