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  Click here to go to the first Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   Thread: Captain in ranked should ALWAYS be given to the highest or 2nd highest MMR player

  1. #11
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    The rest of this is just rehashing the arguments that have already been made; we're not going to come to an agreement on that. Your arguments are not compelling to me; it comes across as hand-waving, rose-colored-sunglasses elitism. And by that, I mean that you're saying, "My idea will work, guaranteed!" without considering ramifications.

    But you don't have to convince everyone. It doesn't even matter if every other person who steps in agrees with you, if the Devs don't. If they're looking, though, it's worth having a voice of opposition, so that they can take the differing arguments at their value.

    This, however:
    Quote Originally Posted by poky View Post
    And lastly... you're telling me to make friends to play solo and duo ranked? uh... that doesn't even make sense man. I'm not trying to find a group for regular team pvp, I already have plenty of those. I'm trying to offer a solution to fix a problem with solo/duo ranked.
    Sure, "go play team ranked" is a valid counter to "I have this problem in solo/duo." You only get rewarded for your best rank of the three Ranked Modes. Trying to be a top dog in all three is counterproductive. If you can make a good team in Team Ranked, even stepping foot in the other two is a waste of time. You have a finite amount of time to play. Why would you voluntarily choose the Mode(s) that clearly gives you so much grief?

    And on the opposite end of the spectrum - if you're as good as you think you are and still insist in engaging all three Modes, the situation is self-repairing. As you climb the ranks, even in Solo Ranked, you should run into fewer and fewer clueless people - they'll stay at lower ranks, while you (and others who understand how to be Captain and/or make good picks) rise above. That's the entire point of the Ranking system, after all. And this is why, as you say in your very first post, that Trion won't ever do it. It's a lot of programming for, at best, a marginal improvement that the players can already "fix" for themselves.

  2. #12
    As much as I would love to agree to disagree with you, you aren't presenting any remotely good counters to my arguments. I actually do embrace voices of opposition as long as they are bringing up reasonable counters since this is a topic I'm interested in debating. I addressed every point you made and proved why it's probably wrong, and also addressed all the possible "ramifications" you brought up and why they are invalid, and you can't come back with anything convincing other than name-calling me an elitist. You haven't even bothered to mention a single one of the points I made in the last post because you have nothing to refute them.

    Whereas I addressed all your points, the only new things you bring up here is that this would take a lot of programming to accomplish, and that this problem disappears at high ranks. Wrong, it would probably just be a couple lines of code to change it from a random value for captain to comparing mmrs and randomly picking from the top 2, and no, even at diamond rank this problem persists because matchmaking still puts very inexperienced low mmr players on the same teams as diamond players, since there are not enough players at the top ranks to have the games just consist of plat+diamonds.

    So you know what? Let me do your job for you.

    Here's an actual good argument for why my solution may not be as good or useful as I believe it to be:

    Trion has a lot of data they are constantly collecting about stuff such as win % of different freelancers, drafts, and team compositions. Some of that data is actually surprising to me, proving things such as the fact that some freelancers people consider to be low tier actually have high win % even at "high" mmr (such as oz and elle), as well as the fact that off-meta team compositions have almost the same chances of winning (3 firepower 1 support, 4 supports, etc) as the 3-1-1 meta. I'd be willing to bet that Trion could probably come up with some hard data that possibly proves that drafts don't affect the game's outcome nearly as much as I believe it does. I would still disagree with them though when it comes to matches at the very top tier, but for the vast majority of the population maybe this issue just doesn't affect the game as much as I think, and only annoys experienced players, and thus isn't worth the effort to fix.

    Nevertheless, if Trion came forth with this argument, I would at least be somewhat satisfied with the response . But their current reason that inexperienced players need "practice" being captain is bad logic as I explained earlier, as is everything you have brought up.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekojin View Post
    And on the opposite end of the spectrum - if you're as good as you think you are and still insist in engaging all three Modes, the situation is self-repairing. As you climb the ranks, even in Solo Ranked, you should run into fewer and fewer clueless people - they'll stay at lower ranks,
    matchmaking is not done based on ranks, but based on a hidden MMR score. Poky's MMR will already be quite a bit higher than default from season 1, and yet this was clearly not enough to address the issue. One can infer that there just aren't enough people with that kind of experience in the queue to prevent poky from being matched with people who don't know how to captain.

    Furthermore, captain used to go to the person with the highest MMR. So we can infer that it's not "a lot of programming" (or at least not a lot of new programming. Hooray version control.)

    I'm not saying it is or isn't a good way to address the issue, but you seemed to be missing some information in the basis of your arguments.

    Now, for making suggestions...

    This is definitely more along the "lots of programming" route, but my suggestion would be to be make it opt-in. Someone can choose to vie for the captain's chair if it's something they want to do, or let someone else call the shots if they're not feeling so confident in themselves. Default it to off, and most new players won't end up there. This also gives you a place to add some UI explaining some of the strategy behind being captain, that trading is a thing, etc.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujo View Post
    my suggestion would be to be make it opt-in. Someone can choose to vie for the captain's chair if it's something they want to do, or let someone else call the shots if they're not feeling so confident in themselves. Default it to off, and most new players won't end up there. This also gives you a place to add some UI explaining some of the strategy behind being captain, that trading is a thing, etc.
    Those are great suggestions Kujo! I wouldn't be surprised if many new players are not even interested in being captain and would leave it off. And yes some ui elements explaining trading and strategy would be awesome and very helpful I'd imagine.

  5. #15
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    I approve this message.

  6.   Click here to go to the next Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   #16
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    Hello there,

    First, some details on how captaincy works in our draft. If all players in the game are solo and none of the players have played Ranked before, each player starts with an equal chance of being the leader. Then, you get an increased chance for each game you've played consecutively *without* getting lead. This helps protect any given player against a long dry streak of not being captain. Furthermore, if you are in a group of two or four, if any of your players are selected to be captain, leadership will be given to the group leader - so make sure the group leader of your duo is the one you want to be doing pick/ban! If, after all that, everyone is exactly even in games-since-leading and group membership, we will tiebreak with MMR - but it's very uncommon that all players have an equal number of games played since they've been the captain.

    We actually used to structure the ranked draft in the manner you suggested, and we intentionally moved away from it. There are several reasons for this. Firstly, at almost all ranks, your matchmaking rating is intended to be hidden information. The more in-the-background it is, the more it can do its job of helping make good matches and the less it has to be manipulated to also provide mechanical incentives to play more matches. Secondly, we were unhappy with the social scenario that was created by giving lead to the highest-rating player. Players gain rating primarily by being good at piloting their characters during actual gameplay, and there's no definitive correlation between a player's piloting skill and their overall strategic knowledge of the game, or their social skills to be a good leader responsive to their teammates' specific strengths and weaknesses. Finally, we think it's important that your overall rank represents your ability to play every position, and that we give all players a chance to get high priority on their personal picks, and a chance to fill in and counterpick late in the batting order.

    On a more personal level, I understand it can be frustrating to be on a team and have someone make draft decisions you disagree with. Fundamentally, in a team game, learning to co-operate with your team is one of the key skills that you have to have to thrive. If someone makes a draft decision you disagree with, you can either carry out your gameplan ignoring their decision, or you can try to play along with them. I know for a fact that respecting their agency and playing along gives you a better chance of winning than giving them negative feedback and not being a team player.

    I hope this post helps you understand why we've structured the draft in the way that we have.

  7. #17
    Thanks for the reply! I may not necessarily agree with all of it but I really appreciate hearing the dev thoughts on these issues!

    My only reply is that I find it somewhat hard to believe that higher mmr doesn't equal better drafting skills, but you guys have the raw data to prove otherwise (maybe) so I don't have much evidence there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Finally, we think it's important that your overall rank represents your ability to play every position, and that we give all players a chance to get high priority on their personal picks, and a chance to fill in and counterpick late in the batting order.
    That's actually a really good point that hadn't occurred to me. I can agree with that as a good reason for captain being random.

  8.   Click here to go to the previous Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread. This is the last Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by poky View Post
    I can agree with that as a good reason for captain being random.
    To clarify, it is only random if all players have the same MMR (so never, effectively). It is almost always "the person who has not been it in the longest time", unless it's the group leader of that person, and if all people on the team haven't been it in the same amount of time, it's the person with the highest rating. Time Since Last Captain -> Group Leader -> Ranking -> Random

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    To clarify, it is only random if all players have the same MMR (so never, effectively). It is almost always "the person who has not been it in the longest time"
    oh right whoops, forgot to reword it as what you explained rather than random, although in effect it is kind of the same result as random isn't it? since overall % times of being captain (aside from the group leader thing) should end up being somewhat close to 1/4 matches (unless the probabilities get way too messy to calculate since it compares everyone's longest time since last captain) which is the same chance as random, but it's just distributed every so often rather than true random I guess, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

  10. #20
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    It's not a bad idea for winrate balance, but people with high MMR would end up often / always being captain, which would be annoying for them and the others both.
    I don't think it would make much of a difference anyway. For starters, who actually drafts regularly in solo and duo queue? I rarely see it much, except for obvious picks like Quark. After all, swapping as captain means you have less pick / role choices: it's good for the team but not for you, and I'm not sure high MMR players are any less selfish on average. Besides, knowing they're the highest MMR would make captains even less likely to draft, as they know they're (supposedly) their team's biggest asset, and feel they "should" pick their best freelancer and role.

    Anyway, I might be wrong but I don't feel drafting makes much difference in solo queue. People often have a limited idea of which freelancers are good, and who counters who. If I'm captain then I'm not going to trade Nix or Blackburn for the 4th player if Phaedra is available.
    I probably lose far more games due to players picking difficult freelancers like Kaigin or Rampart, having no idea how to play them, and ending up with 200 contribution and 2 deaths.

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