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  Click here to go to the first Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   Thread: Captain in ranked should ALWAYS be given to the highest or 2nd highest MMR player

  1. #1

    Exclamation Captain in ranked should ALWAYS be given to the highest or 2nd highest MMR player

    Trion will never do this but I don't care. Let's discuss it anyway.

    In my experience, 30% of ranked matches are lost in the draft phase by inexperienced captains that can't comprehend that trading freelancers with teammates is an option, and that they don't have to 1st or 2nd pick a low priority/tier lancer that nobody else is going to steal from them anyway.

    Let me make this clear: It's OKAY if you want to play something off-meta like oz/juno/elle/rampart/garrison/etc etc but it's NOT OKAY to pick it 1st or 2nd if you care about winning the game.
    You should be picking the high priority/tier lancers (if your teammates want to play them of course), and trade it to them for whatever you want to play.

    Bans are not as big of a deal imo, usually I don't really care what you ban, but you shouldn't let the other team 1st pick Quark probably (so ban it if necessary).

    High priority picks (imo): Quark, Lockwood, Asana, Phaedra, maybe a few others arguably but not much more

    I brought this up in General Chat today, the best place to discuss anything obviously, and Trion's TheBlueMuzzy responded by saying
    Other players need practice being captain too
    This is bad logic because inexperienced players don't learn anything from being captain and making bad drafts IMO. Nor do I feel like the experience of being captain is at all integral to enjoying ranked play, so there's very little harm in never allowing some players to be captain (unless they end up highest mmr in their match of course). I feel like these players would learn infinitely more from seeing experienced captains draft, and knowing that those players got the captain role because they are higher mmr. This would teach inexperienced players the better ways to draft, so that one day when they end up being the highest mmr and get to be captain, they can also draft correctly.

    And if having only the highest mmr player get captain is too selective, having a 50% chance for it to either go to the highest or 2nd highest mmr player would be perfectly acceptable as well.

    tl;dr Inexperienced players don't understand how to utilize the captain role and draft beneficially, and allowing them to be captain not only ruins ranked game quality, but it does not even really serve to increase the enjoyment of these players or even teach them how to captain/draft effectively. which Trion mistakenly claims is the goal.


    Clarification: I suggest it should use your hidden ranked mmr to determine captain, which is different from your visible rank. For example if you were master ranked last season but haven't played any games yet this season, you are bronze but your hidden mmr is actually much higher.


    Hey Trion: bonus tip: implement this as an unannounced/secret change (unless transparency issues cause more problems) and see match quality improve without potential ego issues arising. Not that I haven't argued that the ego issues are worth dealing with though.

    update: Got a dev response! woo! Consider my mind now partially changed.

  2. #2
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    YASSSS!

    The inexperienced players should learn by example and eventually they will be captains anyway, but they will be armed with the knowledge what is first ban/first pick in the meta.

    I try to steer the inexperienced captains by typing in chat but usually they don't read, don't realise or, the worst, don't care there is a big strategy component in draft.

  3. #3
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    I would be ok with a clause that anyone with a "high enough" mmr is eligible.

    Either way, if you want people to get better you need to /team what you're thinking.

    Sort of on this topic, I was "captain" for a solo match last night, and other than "we won" it's hard to know how well I did. First team banned Celeste. I figured that meant they were going to take whichever of Helio and Quark I let them have, so I didn't ban either one, and banned Lockwood instead. The first team chose Quark. At this point, I debated the chances they would take both Helio and Quark, or if I should take a good frontliner to go with Helio and rely on somene picking him up last. (and then trade the frontliner, because I can't frontline.) But I ended up just picking Helio. Since the rest of the team could now see the Helio up there, they picked a team based on combos with Helio. (without any /team coordination.) And we did combo like crazy.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujo View Post
    Either way, if you want people to get better you need to /team what you're thinking.
    This doesn't work most of the time, I try often, since inexperienced players have their own ideas based off limited knowledge about the game and are not willing to take advice in contrary to it.

  5. #5
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    This is the worst-case scenario I imagine happening:
    I'm the captain therefore higher MMR therefore better than you do as I say RAWRAWRAWRAWR!!!!!!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Memez View Post
    This is the worst-case scenario I imagine happening:
    I agree situations like that are awful where people are too bossy even though perhaps they are only slightly higher in mmr than their teammates and therefore would be earning captain by insignificant margins and not really have a right to tell others what to do (especially if they are wrong).

    HOWEVER: if you think about it, what you are describing happens already, with or without this system. There are ragers, elitists, and bossy people everywhere that think they are right regardless of the circumstances, but more often than not it is the inexperienced and bad players who yell the loudest. At least with this system, the bossy captain may indeed be an impolite rager, but at least there's a better chance that they that know what they are doing and won't ruin the game unlike an inexperienced player that does the same thing but also drafts terribly and loses the game for u.

  7. #7
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    I disagree with this completely. The only way to get experience is by doing. And usually by making mistakes in the process. If you're not the Captain, and the person who is seems to be clueless, take the opportunity to teach, to educate, without being a rager when and if they make mistakes. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

    This is how you make friends, teammates. This is how the BEST guilds/clans/whatever operates - when a team member needs help, help them. They'll thank you later*.

    * Or maybe they won't - some people don't appreciate good advice, but that's their problem, not yours.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekojin View Post
    If you're not the Captain, and the person who is seems to be clueless, take the opportunity to teach, to educate, without being a rager when and if they make mistakes. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
    See my previous response. This seldom works in practice. Sure sometimes you get people that are willing to listen and that's always nice and refreshing and I wouldn't mind teaching them. My duo partner and I always nicely ask the captain to make high priority freelancer 1st/2nd picks when we get into a ranked match and try to point out why some are higher priority than others if they don't understand. But usually we get no response at all and the captain just proceeds to 1st pick Oz or Helio or whatever low tier pick they want for themselves even after we explain trading is a thing. btw I only used the term ragers to describe the potential of someone acting that way, but that is something i'd never do and have never done, in case you were implying that I'm part of the problem. But you make a good point nonetheless, there are indeed plenty of people that actually end up making the problem worse because their "help" is more rage than help.

    Anyway, I get that you're trying to argue that everything can be solved by magical friendships but unfortunately that doesn't work when you're playing with close-minded randoms or people that just don't care, (and as you put it, they don't appreciate good advice), and not people you know (guilds and clans which you bring up are a completely different story, and obviously that is where magical friendships do thrive. I would know as I've played mmos for over 10 years and those communities are completely different from f2p moba communities like LoL or Dota unless u also manage to find a group of friends in mobas, which doesn't count since they would no longer be randoms at that point, so it's not really a good comparison imo).

    And.. to finish.. it is actually not their problem as you say, but mine. These players don't understand that they are losing the game because of their drafts so not only do they learn nothing from it, but they are also not impacting their own enjoyment of the game since they will attribute the loss to something else such as bad teammates instead, so they actually got what they wanted out of the draft in their mind by getting to 1st pick Nix or whatever they did. Instead it is indeed my problem because they are only affecting my enjoyment/success since I do know that our loss was because of their draft.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by poky View Post
    See my previous response. This seldom works in practice. Sure sometimes you get people that are willing to listen and that's always nice and refreshing and I wouldn't mind teaching them. My duo partner and I always nicely ask the captain to make high priority freelancer 1st/2nd picks when we get into a ranked match and try to point out why some are higher priority than others if they don't understand. But usually we get no response at all and the captain just proceeds to 1st pick Oz or Helio or whatever low tier pick they want for themselves even after we explain trading is a thing. btw I only used the term ragers to describe the potential of someone acting that way, but that is something i'd never do and have never done, in case you were implying that I'm part of the problem. But you make a good point nonetheless, there are indeed plenty of people that actually end up making the problem worse because their "help" is more rage than help.
    One step forward...

    Anyway, I get that you're trying to argue that everything can be solved by magical friendships but unfortunately that doesn't work when you're playing with close-minded randoms or people that just don't care, (and as you put it, they don't appreciate good advice), and not people you know (guilds and clans which you bring up are a completely different story, and obviously that is where magical friendships do thrive. I would know as I've played mmos for over 10 years and those communities are completely different from f2p moba communities like LoL or Dota unless u also manage to find a group of friends in mobas, which doesn't count since they would no longer be randoms at that point, so it's not really a good comparison imo).
    ...and one step back. I'm not advocating "magical friendships." I'm advocating a fair treatment to all players, ESPECIALLY in a random-team (Solo Ranked) setup. Highest ELO isn't a magical cure - it's a band-aid, at best. The worst player can still have a higher ELO (since, by design, you're matched up with people very close to your own ELO), and you're back to the same problem. The solution you're advocating didn't FIX the problem here, it EXACERBATED it. Currently, that bad apple has a 1 in 4 chance of being leader. With this solution, if he happens to have the highest ELO, he IS the leader, and you're SOL. So after the fix, you still have the same complaint. Nothing has been solved.

    And.. to finish.. it is actually not their problem as you say, but mine. These players don't understand that they are losing the game because of their drafts so not only do they learn nothing from it, but they are also not impacting their own enjoyment of the game since they will attribute the loss to something else such as bad teammates instead, so they actually got what they wanted out of the draft in their mind by getting to 1st pick Nix or whatever they did. Instead it is indeed my problem because they are only affecting my enjoyment/success since I do know that our loss was because of their draft.
    It's your problem for one game, after which you can FIDO on to the next game. It's his problem until he figures out how to actually use the system.

    For what it's worth, the perfect solution for the problem you perceive is already available. Make friends. Have a half-dozen or more of people you trust, that you can make a team with. Coordinate even before you queue for the Ranked game. And communicate. Discord, Teamspeak, Skype, whatever. You completely avoid the problem of Randoms if you're not Random.

    This isn't a problem that needs to be fixed by the Atlas Reactor system playing favorites. You know very well that you're throwing the dice when you go into a Solo Ranked or Duo Ranked match. Trying to stack the deck prematurely solves nothing.

  10. #10
    I disagree completely. Yes the situations you describe where captains that are actually the worst players end up becoming captain will always exist and they will suck, but it will be much lower in frequency that this happens since higher MMR is more likely to correlate with higher skill/ understanding of the game, in contrast to random selection which means the captain can end up being someone that is way way way way below the average mmr level in the game due to the huge discrepancy in the way the matchmaking system puts together matches (new players with low hidden mmr are very often times thrown into matches alongside high mmr players because the game has a smallish playerbase, and if they get captain, it's usually gg if they don't want to listen ).

    So no, my solution will indeed help most of the time since it eliminates the chance of players significantly below your skill level/mmr getting the captain role.. Your logic doesn't make much sense actually. The "bad apples" you are talking about will not get captain every time as you suggest, since the chances of him being the highest mmr on his team, assuming balanced random matchmaking, are still 1 in 4 in theory, assuming he isn't a diamond or master rank player since those ranks don't have very many players. If that still doesn't make sense to you, I'm saying that there's a 3/4 chance that the other players on his team are higher mmr than he is, meaning he obviously won't be captain every time, and unless he is super high rank his overall chances of being captain should not change very much from what they are now. So that argument is flawed for the most part. The only point that is somewhat valid is dealing with the situation where this "bad apple" is only like 1 point ahead of you in mmr or something truly insignificant. But I did include as part of my solution that there should be a 50% for it to either go to the highest or 2nd highest mmr, so if you are only slightly below this bad apple you will have an equal chance of getting it assuming you just so happen to keep getting in games where he is the highest mmr in the game (which once again is very unlikely unless you are very high ranked).

    And no, it's not my problem for one game. My whole point in making this post is that this occurs 30% of my my matches or more, so it's indeed my problem for countless games, whereas it's never a problem for these players because they don't comprehend that their draft lost them the game because understanding that is something that takes a reasonable skill level to understand. I don't blame them either (unless they are the type to not listen). It's unfair to expect new players to understand the mechanics behind drafting and understand that drafts win games, so in every way possible it just makes no sense to give them the captain role, since they don't learn anything from it until they are advanced players.

    And lastly... you're telling me to make friends to play solo and duo ranked? uh... that doesn't even make sense man. I'm not trying to find a group for regular team pvp, I already have plenty of those. I'm trying to offer a solution to fix a problem with solo/duo ranked.

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