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Thread: I'm already seeing issues with Kaigin

  1. #1

    I'm already seeing issues with Kaigin

    I understand the idea behind Kaigin, but I have to say.... He has it all. Range, Damage, a dash AND a cloaking ability, and extreme AOE capabilities.
    considering that kind of breaks the balance the game has set thus far, it seems high time for a nerf.

    Since his character is essentially based off of the 'silent ninja assassin' archetype, a reduction in range for most or even all of his abilities seems to work, considering ninjas are typically thought of as close range stealth warriors.
    However, his attacks still deal far more damage than any other melee lancers, in addition to any AOE or effects they may grant, and that's not even counting the extra ten damage he gets for hitting a marked enemy. I can see a slight nerf to his damage going well in the way of balancing him.

  2. #2
    Kaigin is extremely dependant on his defense mechanisms. The issue is that he can't dash every turn. From what I've seen, Kaigin is the kind of characters you completely ignore as long as he has dashes available. But once everything is on cooldown... he's just a sitting duck.
    As he needs his dashes to attack, and as he needs his dashes to defend, in the end, he has hard time inflicting sustained damage. Most of the time, I see Kaigin attacking isolated preys, who can't retaliate as strong as he attacks. In my opinion, he's not that strong. And considering his success in ranked, I think this opinion is quite global.
    But maybe is it because I haven't seen an excellent Kaigin player.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBidi View Post
    Kaigin is extremely dependant on his defense mechanisms. The issue is that he can't dash every turn. From what I've seen, Kaigin is the kind of characters you completely ignore as long as he has dashes available. But once everything is on cooldown... he's just a sitting duck.
    As he needs his dashes to attack, and as he needs his dashes to defend, in the end, he has hard time inflicting sustained damage. Most of the time, I see Kaigin attacking isolated preys, who can't retaliate as strong as he attacks. In my opinion, he's not that strong. And considering his success in ranked, I think this opinion is quite global.
    But maybe is it because I haven't seen an excellent Kaigin player.
    "The issue he can't dash every turn"
    ... Buddy.... NO lancer can dash every turn. For good reason, too. My issue isnt with his dash at all, but with his other abilities. Kaigin not only has the ability to deal massive amounts of damage, but he deals them in a VERY wide area. Even with the damage reductions for multiple targets, he still easily outdamages many other firepowers in terms of single-target damage, and when you factor in his multi-target capabilities, he can very easily outdamage any other lancer in general.

    I realize that his AOE attacks depend on targets being grouped together, but his shruikens have the range of Grey's primary and the ability to damage up to three targets at that range in a wide arc. His primary is a 2 or 3 square circle with a 270 degree angle of attack. His Ult seems to have the range of Pup's, or maybe more, with a minuscule damage reduction for multiple targets. Not to mention his continual ability to mark enemies and then add an extra ten damage to the next attack. Add that to his dash ability which also deals high damage for a dash compared to other lancers, and an ability that both cloaks him and obscures enemy vision, and, with the mod installed, also debuffs enemies.

    The only justification I can see for his raw damage output is to severely reduce his multi-target capabilities, or maybe even make most or even all of his abilities single-target only.
    Or, in order to keep his multi-target capabilities, he needs a drastic reduction in damage.

  4. #4
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    I think Kaigin is fine. If you look at Kaigin outside of his cooldown abilities and he is a very squishy melee damage dealer. That balances out just fine. As SuperBidi said, once Kaigin is on cooldown, he is extremely vulnerable because of the fact that he needs to be within melee range to continue to deal damage. That leaves him completely exposed to the enemy team. Because he is so squishy, he can only take a few attacks before he is dead. He is really a hit and run type of character which is why his damage is so high. He needs to be able to deal that damage quickly so that he isn't exposed for a long period of time. If you want to sustain damage longer as a Kaigin player, you also risk exposing yourself to being killed easily as well. That's the trade-off you have when playing Kaigin.

    His dashes are more offensive in nature instead of defensive. That means in order to be effective at dealing damage against a target, you're going to be utilizing your dashes to attack. That leaves him very exposed in the event he is caught in the open without a dash available. That's the very reason why he is able to move after dashing. He is extremely squishy and if he was a sitting duck after dashing, he'd become one of the weakest freelancers in the game.

    You say that his attacks deal more damage than any other character. That's very true, but name another melee character that is as weak as he is defensively? There are none. So the extra damage suits him well.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by IridescentIris04 View Post
    I understand the idea behind Kaigin, but I have to say.... He has it all. Range, Damage, a dash AND a cloaking ability, and extreme AOE capabilities.
    considering that kind of breaks the balance the game has set thus far, it seems high time for a nerf.

    Since his character is essentially based off of the 'silent ninja assassin' archetype, a reduction in range for most or even all of his abilities seems to work, considering ninjas are typically thought of as close range stealth warriors.
    However, his attacks still deal far more damage than any other melee lancers, in addition to any AOE or effects they may grant, and that's not even counting the extra ten damage he gets for hitting a marked enemy. I can see a slight nerf to his damage going well in the way of balancing him.
    Kaigin's biggest drawback is he is super squishy. If people know how he works and plan for some of his ninja shennigans he gets dead pretty fast. It in a lot of ways is like a pup but without pups self healing ability so he wants up getting a few good shots in then has to disengage and try to heal up or he just dies.

    Honestly his dashing ability is really not much better than pup and stealth is similar. His big thing is hitting the same target round after round but due to his low hp once you figure out who is target you can abuse him badly if he attempts to make use of his marks.

  6. #6
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    Kaigin has bad survivability issues.

  7. #7
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    as kaigin player would say Dog is much more of a kaigen.
    have lvl10 kaigen and he maybe has more dmg than any carry right now but probbly in 1v1 will loose to dog to others if u max out dmg and debuff on jump maybe ull kill with ur funny 125 hp xD

  8. #8
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    He's a 125 HP melee freelancer with an extremely predictable dash (has to go to one of the enemies. At least PuP has the grace of being able to dash to allies) and a meh invis which are both on an excruciatingly long cool-down. As a PuP player I do well as Kaigin, and I have also never had any problems with him. You essentially sacrifice PuP's massive damage for a little more area control when you play Kaigin, but fighting him's around the same as fighting PuP.

  9. #9
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    The thing that makes Kaigin balanced is that all you have to do is dash and two of his abilities become worthless. If you can predict when a Kaigin is going to ult, just dash, since it only does damage during the dash phase. Not to mention if you can reveal Kaigin before he stealths, then he's an extremely easy target.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trihard View Post
    The thing that makes Kaigin balanced is that all you have to do is dash and two of his abilities become worthless. If you can predict when a Kaigin is going to ult, just dash, since it only does damage during the dash phase. Not to mention if you can reveal Kaigin before he stealths, then he's an extremely easy target.
    That's a meaningless statement. Dashing makes every ability of every character worthless.

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