+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 9 of 9

  Click here to go to the first Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   Thread: Any diamonds want to give us their opinions on tier list?

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    4

    Any diamonds want to give us their opinions on tier list?

    I'm only plat, but from my experience the game is pretty balanced. If I had to tier them it would go:


    S tier is instant pick
    A are consistent strong picks
    B are situational or inconsistent picks but depending on map/team comp can be as good as A tier
    C are situationally good/can be as good as B or A with fewer situations
    Orion needs the correct team comp or he is just poop


    S: Helio
    A: Asana, Nix, Aurora
    A-: Quark, Titus, Su-Ren, Grey, Zuki
    B: Gremolitions, Celeste, Blackburn, Juno
    B-: Lockwood, Elle, Finn, Rask, Garrison
    C: Oz, Rampart, PuP
    D: Orion

    Here are some caveats to my list:
    I don't play against or as Garrison or Juno enough to make a confident decision
    Obviously, map, team/comp matter as well as playstyle/strategy, which makes this hard to balance.
    I think Elle has really great matchups against other firepower/supports but gets stopped by a lot of frontliners
    I think Oz, Blackburn, PuP, and Lockwood are significantly better when teams are not communicating as much (Oz especially)
    I think Rask is really good with Helio but lacking in most lineups.
    I don't think 2 FP, 1 FL, and 1 Support is necessarily the best comp, but you do need some levels of damage focusing, damage prevention, and ability to harass/shut down their glass cannons. You need to force people to overcommit damage because of what supports can do and you need to shut down targets that can do a lot of damage unchecked.

  2. #2
    As you say this game is really balanced so It's hard to make a tier list. Although I would put lockwood and celeste in A. I would put nix down to C. Aurora to B along with quark. Rask is definitly A-. Rampart B or A-. I would up su-ren to A tier.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    99
    I've been away-from-game for about a week as I've started a new job, but here's my two cents:

    Lockwood is amongst the strongest few Firepowers, not middle-of-the-pack.

    Titus is far lower, better than Orion but in the bottom half.

    Oz and PuP aren't that bad, people just play them poorly. I know that sounds hard to believe, but their kits often encourage certain types of players who are prone to making poor decisions to play them.

    Rampart I have a slight bias with as he is my baby but he's mid-tier-ish, maybe slightly on the low half of mid.

    Helio is strong but I'm not certain about giving him his own tier.

    My opinion isn't much better than anyone else's but I'd do something like this, at least for pick-up play:

    A+ (Changing this from your definition, I'd call these "Banworthy characters" but not instalocks necessarily): Lockwood, Helio, Su-Ren
    A: Nix, Aurora, Celeste, Asana, Grey
    A-/B+: Gremolitions, Quark
    B: Rask, Blackburn, Finn, Elle, PuP
    B-/C+: Rampart, Juno, Oz
    C: Garrison, Titus
    C-/D+: -
    D: Orion

    Also I'm plat, not diamond, so that's worth noting (EDIT: Apparently after the patch I am diamond.) Also worth noting that these tiers are pretty tightly packed together: the balance on this game is not bad at all for its age, or in general. IMO very little of this is "overpowered" or "unviable," if at all. That is to say, if "S tier" or "F tier" existed, they would be empty IMHO.

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    99
    Was talking to LordCleveland in stream and he said this much: He believed tiers were close enough together to only justify three.

    LordCleveland :
    High: Celeste, Helio, Su-Ren, Lockwood, Zuki, Asana, Titus, Grey, Aurora
    Mid: Elle, Gremo, Juno, Nix, Garrison, Rask, Dr. Finn, Orion, Quark
    Low: Pup, Oz, Blackburn, Rampart
    He then added that he speculated Kaigin would be in low tier. He believes everyone is viable, roughly speaking. If he wants to pop on here and correct me, of course, take his word and not mine.

  5.   Click here to go to the next Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   #5
    Community Manager
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    468
    This is cool, but I'm so much more interested in a "counter" list. or a team comp list that shows counter strats/mods.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    99
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzzy View Post
    This is cool, but I'm so much more interested in a "counter" list. or a team comp list that shows counter strats/mods.
    Some things to consider here:

    1) How much does a "counter" matter vs picking a character with more overall usability? I've already said here, I think tiers are fairly tight and the game fairly well balanced. That said...I don't think most counters are a big deal either. That is to say, you're dealing almost entirely with very "soft" counters rather than "hard" counters. You won't find any "Kor Firewalker"s here. (Sorry I can and will reference other games.)

    2) People aren't as quick to do this as it's a LOT more work. Rating 22 characters takes 22 fairly complex observations. Saying which character counters each other character requires 22^2, or 484 observations. Team compositions could be either more or less complex than that, based on how you categorize them. Mods are even MORE insanely complex, to the point where it would be madness to try to explain mod countering for every character in the same thread. That would be better served in individual threads for each character.

    That said, let me give this a VERY off-the-cuff character-vs-character counter list. Note that countering one guy in a 4v4 isn't necessarily a big difference - it's at least just as important to consider your own team's needs, if not more so.



    Lockwood - The only thing we can really interact with strongly here is the dashes. Lock can play direct fire game, indirect fire game, do AoE, do burst, do traps...He's very versatile, which is part of what makes him good, and also which makes him hard to "counter." Still, prep-phase traps/dash punishes (Other Lockwoods, Nix, Helio, Juno) are going to be slightly stronger than usual here. Scramble will also be great if you can manage to land it.

    Blackburn - Has a lot of indirect options, but like Lockwood he's also a fairly "standard" character overall. He doesn't really suffer at one particular range or positioning, and the stim generally just requires good predicts by opposition. The closest thing I can think of to a counter here is "Get dashes, not tankiness," because BB can put out a lot of damage against dashless foes.

    Celeste - Broken record time, but Celeste is also a versatile firepower character. She does have a few things that we can "counter" though. Freelancers with high "scouting" (Grey, for example) can help avert Smoke Bomb information-denial disaster, and avoiding lancers with high rates of stealable buffs might help marginally.

    Nix - Finally someone more obvious. The man relies on distance and information denial to stay safe - deny him those. Reveals, and characters who can chase him without getting themselves exploded, help here. Titus, PuP, or even Quark (with partner) can do nasty things if they're not punished for going in deep trying to get to the guy. Other sources of reveal or scouting like Grey can do their part too. If you can forcibly reposition him, a la Rampart hook, you can force a catalyst or flat out kill him usually. STILL, beware overextending! He has a team too, and his 1v1 is not any worse than anyone else's if you're just trading blows!

    Elle - Being able to cover her 1-tile-dashes is big here. Line attacks suffer a bit, but lancers like Juno, Rask, Finn, etc who can cover every adjacent tile won't suffer as much. You can also use AoE cooldowns for that. Elle is very able to convert "dead turns" into some level of usefulness as well with her overcharge, so making sure your team stays active and in the fight may help a little bit. Unstoppable is obviously an asset against her ultimate.

    PuP - What does PuP like? Trading blows. What does PuP hate? Being evaded/CC'd and left out to dry. Reveals can help a bit, but rooting this character is probably the best thing to do. Dashing away from his dashes also can put him in a terrible spot. Frontliners HATE trading blows with PuP, but their CC tools can hurt him a lot. Finn and Aurora can easily protect PuP's quarry AND shrug the dog at once, with bubble or flare.

    Oz - A few things here. One, Oz's range is not spectacular. Two, he is very sensitive to positioning even beyond the limitations of his range due to his image mechanic. You have the option to "kite" this character to an extent, essentially denying him his image attacks, with longer-range characters. Like PuP, CC and forcible repositioning hurt him. Covering the image with wide attacks/smart lines denies options. Basically, the harder you can pressure this character, the better. However, his damage can easily melt people if you don't apply enough pressure, so be wary. I can't think of many character who do this better than the cast at large - maybe Gremo since you can often mine him and the image at once - but avoid low-damage lineups.

    Gremolitons - Minimum range. Long dash CD. These are things we can exploit. Characters who do well with follow-command spam or manual chase are fairly good choices (PuP, conditionally most frontliners, even Elle.)Beware his Big One/splort combo when at midrange, as well. Again, well-timed Unstoppable helps. Like Nix, keeping sight of him is a boon, despite Gremo's lack of invis. Ability to shoot him from behind walls (Lockwood, BB grenade, etc) is also an asset.

    Grey - How to counter grey? Hm. Good question. Her options aren't necessarily the strongest in an ideal situation, but they're also quite difficult to directly "counter" as well. Characters who do well avoiding line attacks (Elle) can be good. Characters who can cover her entire landing zone for her dash (any 3x3 square if she's not using the mod, or wide cones, such as celeste mine, aurora ion cloud, Zuki big one, Elle again) can help. Indirect dashes can be a big help to escape her ultimate.

    Zuki - Don't cluster up? Seriously though, Zuki's main asset is huge area damage. Dashes with low CD can help a lot here. For Cluster Bomb, access to a shield is nice, since it's predictable damage intake (as is Big One at times when you don't want to dash.) Ironically, though, most characters good at the second category are terrible at the first, so your mileage may vary. Juno shield is great vs Zuki, for example, but you are gonna get dumped on overall with your lack of dash vs her high damage output. Stay mobile.

    Juno - Juno biggest weakness by far is her lack of a dash. Freelancers who can pump out damage are your best bet. PuP, Blackburn etc, though try to be wary of her tether. Ground-based damage-over-times can punish her ult, a la Aurora, Oz, or Grey. Her shield can only go so far, abuse that.

    Kaigin - Too early to be definitive here, but let's try. If you can cover a 360 radius around your character, or close to it, you can hit him while he dashes to you. Rampart, Asana, Helio ultimate, etc. Likewise, preventing him from getting bonus damage for consecutive strikes should help - do this via CC or dash, it's similar to PuP. Bubble shield, Aurora heal, Rampart hook, etc. Dash punishes would be nice, but it's an indirect, so only Juno's tether works to punish his two dashes.



    This is exhausting so I'll throw out some thoughts on frontliners and supports in the next post. I do still have doubts as to the value of individual freelancers counters, compared to other factors, so don't post that I'm being too narrow-minded: I know exactly how narrow-minded this is. *shrug*

  7.   Click here to go to the previous Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread. This is the last Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   #7
    Community Manager
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    468
    Look at all that hard work, and how much I appreciate it already

    This information is MUCH more useful than a simple tier list. This shows deep thought, promotes strategy, and helps people choose synergistic team comps. Tier lists just say "who do I ban?" and "who do I play if I don't care about my team?". Thank you for taking a shot at this! I see this as the future of "tier lists".

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    99
    In continuing with the above after a weekend of moving and spending all my free time binging on tabletop RPG work:

    Frontliner counters:

    Asana - Probably going to be the toughest nut to crack out of this category. Her mix-ups between her "thorns" shield and her dash make it hard to punish her via damage output, however I do not believe ignoring her is a great option either. You could try to abuse her 2-tile reach on her melee attack, but she has coverage mix-ups when her root is up as well, as she may choose to use that skill even in melee. Essentially, though, I'd say the best way to get around her defensive options are freelancers with high amounts of target choice -for example Lockwood can usually always find another person to shoot if he thinks Asana will use her defensive options this turn. Prep phase traps will ignore thorns while covering dash, but her ult is an indirect. Forcing a dash whiff CAN put Asana out of position, but not often if she chose smart angles. Staying fluid, not clustering up, yet not getting isolated to get picked apart...is all basic tenets of play that apply to every character anyway, but it might apply here even more. She does less than average if you avoid letting her get value out of her shield, though that's easier said than done. Oh, and I have seen some Quarks really push through a lot of damage onto her, which is nice since only the initial link will give recoil if used on shield, not subsequent turns/radiates (but we may see Quark mentioned a lot in this frontliner section.) Ultimately, I don't think Asana is overpowered in my opinion, however I don't think she has many particularly bad enemy matchups.

    Garrison - It's not a secret that I don't hold Garrison in very high regard, but here goes anyway. Garrison's main weakness is very poor output of damage, without much utility to compensate. His low-CD ranged attack sort of mitigates the counters of "CC the melee freelancer," but with its poor damage and low range its applications there are limited. Missiles can be evaded more easily by freelancers with invisibility or being able to disperse from their team (Nix et al.) Drop pod damage is not very easy to do anything about, but ground hazards can prevent recovery of the health capsule (Aurora/Grey/Juno beam etc.) Don't be too afraid to trade hits if he extends himself into a one-on-one: he has relatively few tricks he can exert upon a foe already within reach, since he can't use dash to pressure adjacent targets.

    Rampart - Reverse bias compared to Garrison: I love this character, but I'd like to think I'm still aware of his flaws. For one, the shield's value is much worse against certain characters. Gremolitions can put most of his attacks right over it, Blackburn's grenade, Orion's primary, and Aurora's ion cloud all do the same, amongst many. Certain ground targeters ignore it, like Oz's static field and Grey's hawk, and so do all tile-selection dashes. Since that list is too huge to be reasonable, I'd say that Gremo, BB and Orion typically bypass it the most often, due to either multiple bypassing abilities or a bypassing primary (Grey has a similar ability to bypass, but unstoppable on demand also counters her in return.) Hook is better against low-mobility lancers, so grab higher mobility ones. Quark can be a nuisance if he gets the initial tether up, since Rampart doesn't have great options to break it.

    Rask - Rask lives and dies on energy. Not sure if that's a popular opinion, but it's one I've espoused. High mobility? Deny energy, rask is sad. Using shields/healing? Well, Rask does not have tremendous damage, but he can more easily cycle ults against such foes. Rask also tends to be better off than usual against enemy melee lancers (possibly sans number titan PuP), since Goo is harder for them to avoid, and if they stay close to you it can be easier to crank big multihit primary attacks out, and Fling can actually ruin their day. You can poke at him with evasive lancers who can run circles around him - like Lockwood, or Grey with her high CC. You can also elude him with Nix or somesuch at times, since his ability to get back on lancers at high distance is poor, though they often have trouble shrugging Rask if he lands a cornering Fling. Well-called disables in general tend to be strong whenever he's not running Unstoppable.

    Titus - Titus, despite his health pool, lags behind other Frontliners in terms of survivability. Titus' biggest weakness to me is his inability to extract himself from danger without being useless for a short time thereafter, due to the rigid structure of his dash. This makes him easy to trap out often, since his escape routes are limited, but moreover characters who can exert enough pressure on Titus can often force him out quite early: big damage like Blackburn, sometimes PuP, Oz etc can do this. Titus' dagger makes him a bit better vs evasive lancers, but his ability to trade blows with sturdier/sustainable lancers like Juno isn't great. On that same note, an enemy Quark is not fun to be attached to, since it's rare you'll have a fruitful target to dash away to to break bond. Your options to deal with Rampart are quite poor as well, actually, since his shield shuts you out entirely and hook is very destructive to you, while his attack and health are just as good as yours.


    I'll do supports when I have a bit more energy.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    58
    Have not played much ranked since actual release but I have been in AR for quite a while now ... I've watched a lot of the PPL stuff and have watched the odd AR video about tier lists (especially if it's from Trash members).

    As much as I appreciate Muzzy's attempt to show AR as a game where each character is ... viable? ... there is still very much a clear tier list, irrespective of counter-match ups... arguably counter-match ups are, as suggested above, a lot less "hard" than in other games.

    I'm honestly a little shocked that the initial poster is diamond and didn't rank Lockwood as the top/one of the top picks? Perhaps Lockwood has been banned in so many of her/his games that they haven't really had a chance to play against them ...

    Still ... the basic list is ...

    Top firepowers ... Lockwood, Celeste, Grey ... pretty easy and should be self-explanatory ... none of them really have any "negatives" ... they may be better at some areas than others but they really don't have "bad" things ... as an example, even though Nix is up there as a solid firepower, his lack of a dash is actually a 'bad" thing that he carries with him and this is why he is in the tier below the other 3, along with Gremo, Blackburn and maybe a few others ... Juno? Oz? PuP?

    Top frontliners ... Asana and Rask ... still ... again, no real negatives or hard counter-match ups. Titus and arguably Rampart are next with Garrison bringing up the rear ... Garrison is incredibly situational where he is actually decent, all other times he is lacking, likewise with Rampart though maybe Rampart has a few more tools to make him less lacking in lots of situations.

    Finally the supports ... this is probably the most even tier with most being solid picks ... possibly Orion is the weakest/hardest to use well ... maybe Helio is the top though again, situationally and perhaps counter-match up-ingly he is not so far above all the others ...

    Anyway, talk to the members of team Trash ... undefeated (still?) in a competitive match ... they know about the Lancers that are good and the ones that aren't so good ...

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts