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  Click here to go to the first Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   Thread: Su-Rewin questionable numbers (it's long, there's maths, and there's a tl;dr at the bottom)

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy View Post
    More damage then all damage dealers, when she suposed to be a support.
    With all that - just a tiny bit less healing, then Quark.
    Nuff said.
    Both of the damage dealers died twice, which means that there were 4 turns out of 20 - nearly a quarter of the game - where they were doing no damage at all. That's going to skew their damage numbers down quite a bit.

    Edit a few hours later - I wasn't really awake yet when I wrote this, and was only looking at the top four characters. Sorry for that.

    But that said - a single game doesn't tell the whole story. It's possible that the Su-Ren simply had better opportunities than the rest of the players.

  2. #12
    aye, doing 600+ damage as Su really requires favourable conditions - I'd wager your team was clumped up and she could consistently hit 2+ targets with the primary and ult.

    400 healing is about right for any support in a 20-turn match.
    The one thing that could cause cowboys and Indians to join forces is their mutual enemy: dinosaurs.

  3. #13
    I have to disagree. While su sounds real, real good on paper I don't think all of this transitions well into the arena. At least without comms. Now maybe she will be op in upper level competitive play. In solo queue you are going to see a lot of people dashing out of your heal even after you type and send "don't dash this round I got you" or "Titus don't sprint you'll be out of dash range" and you die because Titus wasn't on the same page. And if you actually manage to land a 2-4 person ult the conditions had to be so favorable. Can it happen? Yes, is it op in numbers? Yes. Is it reliable or have any consistency, not at all.
    A character like quark or aurora has extremely consistent heals and damage. Su has to get In To do damage, I've been playing a ton of su and actually came for the first time (as a founder) to be complain about her kit. A lot of characters have the tools to get in and do damage, or get in a spread debuffs or get in and self heal but su has much weaker versions of all that. I can get in but I can't get in and do damage in one turn. I can't get in and debuff in one turn. Now I can get to my teammates and heal in one turn.
    Her damage is inconsistent and has the weakest self heal bull mod of all characters. Couple this with a measly 140 hp and no ability like Titus shout to spread wide debuffs and still attack in one turn. Chances are if I'm dashing into enemies without comms and my allies go out of dash range, which is all to common because people don't care to chat much it seems, you will die and die fast. If you manage to ult up first it can be really good. But generally (from my experience) people will just get out of range and re-engage after your damage goes off. Then your either running with dash or dead. I can say that she definitely has some really good POTENTIAL with her dashes, assuming your enemies don't hide in fog, behind cover and your allies are on the same page.
    I actually think she could use a 10-20 hp buff and a slight buff to her leech mod with a +1 (4 hp on hit) to each target hit. At this point playing her like a front liner is just like playing a worse asana, playing her as a dedicated healer is worse than any other healer, and her damage isn't safe enough to warrant not having an extra ranged. I think she really shines as a disrupter/off tank/support on teams with another healer, a front line and one dedicated damage. I'd like to see her in high end play, maybe there with communication and high knowledge levels she is really strong but it seems like she is very lackluster in lower levels of play.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy View Post


    More damage then all damage dealers, when she suposed to be a support.
    With all that - just a tiny bit less healing, then Quark.
    Nuff said.
    Congrats on that person predicting everything really well.

    All I have to say here is,
    Prediction. Su-Ren relies so heavily on prediction. Where will your enemies go? Where will your allies go? If you dash to allies and then heal, will they still be there by the blast phase? Will the person you shield even need it? Will the person you shield close the distance to enemies to take advantage of the damage effect? Will enemies predict that shield and target another player? Will enemies predict the shield and scatter, or distance themselves from the predicted target? Will dashing at en enemy strand you amongst them? Will dashing at an ally leave you too far from the action? Will dashing at all leave a target of the opposite team to dash away to?

    I can go on, and on, and on.

    Basically.... Su-ren is all prediction.
    Meaning, you either see the future and make everyone scream for nerfs, or you miss and everyone laughs at you and then moves on to find another character to hate.

  5. #15
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    #1 - Regarding dps
    This is just theory. Show us these numbers (I am talking about 112, 119, 136 damage to a single enemy in 2 turns) in real matches. And I want to see, that you as the Su-Ren player alone are responsible for getting the damage in - no help from your team please, that's cheating. And also do this against the odds, otherwise it doesn't count. If an enemy player for whatever reason literally let himself killed by you, it was bad play from the enemy, not good play from you or the result of an OP freelancer. Basically I want to see you hunt down and kill different enemy players playing different freelancers over and over again, literally assassinating them - without them being able to avoid your damage. Screenshots with damage numbers mean nothing. Videos with whole matches will count.

    #2 - healing
    The dash heal + AoE heal combo is neat. Healing 50hp to a single team member can be done. Now the downside. You have to be close to your teammate, which is already low on health (below 50%) and is getting focussed / attacked. Most likely both of you will take damage. Now subtract the damage Su-Ren receives from that 50hp healing. Why? She puts herself in danger to help a teammember to survive. So having a higher peak heal than some other supporters kinda tries to balance this out. Example: You dash to your teammate and you have to pass over 2 mines, over a trap, through Helios wall, whatever. You have the choice: eat the damage and heal your comrade or not. No other supporter has to make this decision almost constantly.

    #3 - the reality
    My Su-Ren is lvl18. I also saw other Su-Ren action from team and enemy players. I never had the feeling she's OP. I would even like to improve her a bit or maybe add some "spice" to her skills. In ranked games I never saw Su-Ren banned. When my teammates saw the enemy team setup I never heard them say "OMG! They got a Su-Ren! We are doomed!". In a real match things look different.

    So... you got your PoV, I got mine. With all due respect - at the moment you can't prove your theory. So it means nothing.

    Kind regards,

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronHall View Post
    Just gonna list a bunch of numbers and some elementary level maths here, covering Su having the potentially strongest ult in the game with the Aftershock mod, and even when taking very minimal damage to her shield, is on par with everyone else in damage. Also covering how she has the highest potential healing in a single turn, and even per turn in general over the course of a match.
    That's theoretical, not actual. I have my Quark to level 3. I have Su-ren somewhere in the vicinity of level 10. Despite having more experience with her, Quark effortlessly outperforms her. She's good for surviving and that game mode with the briefcases and that's about it. Her range is barely longer than a frontline's, but without the survivability to make good use of it. Her main heal is basically melee range. I spend more time chasing my team around than I do actually healing them. The only way I can imagine her getting a ton of healing is with a team consisting of a frontline, Kaigen and PuP where they're all clustered together at close range the whole time. Theorycrafting and actual gameplay work completely differently a lot of the time, and this is one of those times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy View Post


    More damage then all damage dealers, when she suposed to be a support.
    With all that - just a tiny bit less healing, then Quark.
    Nuff said.
    He's quarking wrong.


  7. #17
    As a full time support player in a competitive team, some of your arguments have some merit while others need to happen in a perfect scenario:

    You are correct in your observation that Su has the highest burst healing capabilites of all the supports, if modded correctly you can heal someone for 55+ in a turn. Assuming it's your 2nd dash (you dashed to an enemy first, and your ally is below half hp )

    The rest of your observations are very much skewed and doesn't happen when players have had games under their belt and grasped the abilities and how each Lancer functions.

    Experienced players tend to predict to who you will be dashing after you have used the first charge of your dash. Hint: Su can dash an opponent after dashing an ally and vice versa. She can usually be caught out of position once the dash charges have been expended. A Su Ren Ultimate could also be predictable as well as the following turn after the Ultimate has charged up.

    From my experience, Su typically stays around 120-200 damage range, everything above that is usually an anomaly. I also had games where I did 12 damage in a 20 turn game...

    Again these are based on my experience playing in competitive play as a Su-Ren.

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