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  Click here to go to the first Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   Thread: Su-Rewin questionable numbers (it's long, there's maths, and there's a tl;dr at the bottom)

  1. #1
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    Su-Rewin questionable numbers (it's long, there's maths, and there's a tl;dr at the bottom)

    Just gonna list a bunch of numbers and some elementary level maths here, covering Su having the potentially strongest ult in the game with the Aftershock mod, and even when taking very minimal damage to her shield, is on par with everyone else in damage. Also covering how she has the highest potential healing in a single turn, and even per turn in general over the course of a match. If you're not going to read it, please don't randomly downvote. I would like an actual discussion on the logic behind it. I'm not badmouthing the game, but I feel this additional is incredibly questionable. If you care about the game state and potential for competitive play, you'll at least not be negative for absolutely no reason.

    Potential damage:
    - Ult, no Might: 50 on turn one, 75 turn to with Aftershock. Minimum 25 + 12.5. Every 20 damage taken is 5 damage on the base amount and 2.5 damage on the Aftershock. This means, if you only take 20 damage out of your 100 shield (being reaaal generous here. That's less than basically every character's main attack), you'll still be able to deal 30 + 15, which is 45 damage.
    - Might on first turn of damage: Potential 62.5 + 25 (the Aftershock does not include extra damage from Might on the turn before, thank God). Meaning she has a potential of 87.5 damage.

    Might or no, this ultimate, 'what if you're too awful to hit people with both procs despite having two dashes and the ability to slow' trash argument aside, has the highest potential damage ultimate of anything in the game, and as shown in the following paragraph, it is a very wide range, and when coupled with her dash, has a very easy time catching and chasing people.

    Her ult is able to hit 38 squares (37 when not counting herself), as shown here: (excuse my crude writing) http://puu.sh/rN71r/17ea660508.jpg. This means it will not be a stretch to hit 2+ people on both turns, especially with the mobility provided by her dash, and the freedom to simply auto-follow someone with a 100 shield buffer on the turn of ulting. However, for the sake of single target damage, she is able to

    Her dash has a range of 8 squares (http://puu.sh/rN7tc/311fb8998e.jpg) and a choice of 20 squares (http://puu.sh/rN72k/3e36dcc836.jpg) to 'rebound' to, the target square being the 21st square, which does not require actually hitting the target to reposition.

    As shown, her effective range to land this ultimate is absolutely insane. You would have to be braindead to miss.

    So, coupling these two abilities, your damage is as follows:
    - No Might, turn one of ult going off: Potential 50 (Ult) + 20 (Dash), which is 70 damage potential to a single target, with just the ult damage to anyone else nearby.
    - Might, turn one of ult going off: Potential 62.5 (Ult) + 25 (Dash), which is 87.5 potential damage to a single target, with just the ult damage to anyone else nearby.
    - No Might, both turns of ult, no damaging skill used second turn: Potential 50 (Ult) + 25 (Aftershock) + 20 (Dash) = 95 damage.
    - Might, both turns of ult, no damaging skill used second turn: Potential 62.5 (Ult) + 25 (Aftershock) + 25 (Dash) = 112.5 damage.
    - No Might, both turns of ult, using a damaging skill second turn: Potential 50 (Ult) + 25 (Aftershock) + 20 (Dash) + 24 (Melee) = 119 damage.
    - Might (first turn), both turns of ult, using a damage skill second turn: Potential 62.5 (Ult) + 25 (Aftershock) + 25 (Dash) + 24 (Melee) = 136.5 damage. Enough to kill someone using a healing cata on the second turn after realizing the pain of the first turn.

    Basically, she has the highest potential of any character in the game, over the course of either one, or two turns, by far. With her ult alone. Not even including her dashing or whatever skill she wants to use on the second turn. Can someone tell me why I shouldn't play her again? Even if I don't want the second turn's worth of damage, and decide to flee with my second dash, that's still absolutely ridiculous for a support with so many options.

    Now, onto her healing:

    She has the amount of healing in a single turn of any character. I don't care if she's using two abilities for it, one is on a three turn cooldown and is FREE. This means you can do this major healing in fairly rapid succession with Brain Juice, and even by normal standards, you will use the free action heal 5x a game on average, potentially 6 with Brain Juice.

    - AoE Heal: 24 hp, no mods. Up to 32 on a sub-50% target with the correct mod.
    - Dash heal: 20 hp, no mods. Up to 28 on a sub-50% target with the correct mod, or 30 with the 50% improvement mod.
    In a single turn, you can heal an individual target for 44 - 60/62 hp (turns and abilities happen simultaneously, so there's no risk of one sub-50% heal preventing the other from triggering at sub-50%), and adjacent targets, with the same 37 square range as your ult, for a base of 24 hp with up to 32% hp. Even with the absolute minimum value, no mods, this is the highest single target heal (and shield, by extension) in the game. With bonus aoe. This beats out ults, too, and is going to be used far more often. I'm sorry what. This is basically the same as two turns' worth of Helio shields + a Black Hole shield, which is three skills in comparison to Su's two, and Su's is on a lower cd. And aoe. You could include the ult heal numbers in here somewhere, but I'm a firm believe that it's better to take Aftershock. Even if Su is only healing herself, this aoe heal may as well be a free skill negation.

    In all of this, I didn't even include the fact that you'll probably be behind cover most of the time (thus halving damage you receive, further improving how much your effective health with your healing), or jumping to positions where you're not expected to be, potentially avoiding entire turns' worth of skills (even dodging one skill is the equivalent of 25 or so free health).

    Basically, not only does she have the highest potential damage of any character with her ultimate (which you'll use twice a match, maybe three times if you do exceptionally well), she also has the highest single target heal, and is second only to Quark in aoe healing, and his is on an ultimate, whereas Su's is a free action that's up every three turns.

    Keep in mind, I basically only presented straight NUMBERS in all this. There's no subjective opinion, there's no 'best case scenario' state. Even with only taking a single below average hit on her ult shield (you'll definitely take more if you have even half a mind for positioning and forethought for your ult, but I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt here), she still competes with everyone else in damage by a long shot. Heck, she could always throw her ult on someone else who will potentially die, guaranteeing her shield will take damage, then Might the following turn to follow up on someone else/heal that person, and the damage will still probably hit someone with ease.

    If you want to argue everything else she has (highest mobility, highest survivability, borderline unpredictable and it's not even rewarding for proper predictions, great chasing and kiting, complete shutdowns on enemy ults which also result in your team receiving insane buffs, etc), I'm more than happy to do so. But with pure, undeniable numbers alone, she's still in the lead.

    tl;dr Su-Rewin is the alpha character that fills every role and has the potential to kill a character in two turns on her own, the only character in the game with this option. Zuki with sticky bombs + ult + free action Big One all Mighted is the only contender, and that's far harder to land and not as reliably done, and is still less damage. Just to get the hilarious counter argument out of the way, I guess Grem can also do similar damage if someone decides to manually path a full circle around him when he splorts.

    If she doesn't force your catalyst, you're probably dead. Possibly multiple people dead, not even including her team helping in the damage. You only have one catalyst, she'll have two ults.

    Also, on an off note, I've been running her as a tank and getting far more success than every other tank, including my main, Titus. High mobility, easy access to cover and damage mitigation in general, and low cd heals, does not make a fun to play against character. Especially in a meta where Helios was already running wild and now has a new favourite black hole transfer unit.

    Finally, one of the best ways to provide counters to the character would be to add a skill or mod for a character (as an example, Titus' dagger may have a mod for it; probably biased here because I play him) - add an effect that prevents a target from receiving healing (and possibly shields, although shields are weaker as a whole right now anyway, so it might be better to just leave it as heal. That being said, preventing shields would be a clear counter to that Helios + Su combo cancer).

  2. #2
    I wasn't sure if you were on this forum and was about to paste your argument from the Steam forums.

  3. #3
    judging a character's power exclusively by how powerful their ult is in ideal conditions is a fallacy, and you've just spent so many words and numbers to propagate it. I also like how you preemptively assume that everyone who offers counterarguments "has to be braindead."

    reality check, big shoots: numbers in a vacuum mean nothing, as does your whole argument.
    The one thing that could cause cowboys and Indians to join forces is their mutual enemy: dinosaurs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inflatable fish View Post
    judging a character's power exclusively by how powerful their ult is in ideal conditions is a fallacy, and you've just spent so many words and numbers to propagate it. I also like how you preemptively assume that everyone who offers counterarguments "has to be braindead."

    reality check, big shoots: numbers in a vacuum mean nothing, as does your whole argument.
    I said braindead in regards to missing such an easily landed ult. Not in regards to providing counter arguments. That sounds like you're just looking for a way to attack me without providing evidence against my points. If you have an actual argument rather than your childish passive-aggressiveness and buzzword-filled post, which doesn't even provide a single iota of discussion to the topic, I'd love to hear it.

    Numbers in a vacuum are much more evidence than simply saying 'they don't matter'. Why don't they matter? Can numbers simply be ignored because you say so, despite the fact that the entire game's balance revolves around numbers, mobility and positioning, all of which she excels in? It wouldn't be a stretch to say that she may define the meta similar to Helios, and when played together, that team will be playing on easy mode. The fact of the matter is that she is the only character that could possibly kill a target, or multiple targets, in two turns on her own. Her burst is the highest in the game, her heals are the highest in the game, her mobility is the highest in the game.

    When you have an actual argument with any form of substantiated evidence, I'll think about replying again. This time, preferably without the sass, and actually addressing the post. I was simply providing numbers. I went into more detail than the ult, too, but you seem to have ignored that as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronHall View Post
    I said braindead in regards to missing such an easily landed ult. Not in regards to providing counter arguments. That sounds like you're just looking for a way to attack me without providing evidence against my points. If you have an actual argument rather than your childish passive-aggressiveness and buzzword-filled post, which doesn't even provide a single iota of discussion to the topic, I'd love to hear it.

    Numbers in a vacuum are much more evidence than simply saying 'they don't matter'. Why don't they matter? Can numbers simply be ignored because you say so, despite the fact that the entire game's balance revolves around numbers, mobility and positioning, all of which she excels in? It wouldn't be a stretch to say that she may define the meta similar to Helios, and when played together, that team will be playing on easy mode. The fact of the matter is that she is the only character that could possibly kill a target, or multiple targets, in two turns on her own. Her burst is the highest in the game, her heals are the highest in the game, her mobility is the highest in the game.

    When you have an actual argument with any form of substantiated evidence, I'll think about replying again. This time, preferably without the sass, and actually addressing the post. I was simply providing numbers. I went into more detail than the ult, too, but you seem to have ignored that as well.
    Numbers don't matter in a vacuum because balance is about how characters measure against each other. Your math here means nothing because of that: Demonstrating imbalance requires demonstrating inequalities amongst characters, but you have only mentioned one.

    That's not an argument, that's theoretical exhibition.

  6. #6
    allow me to list all the assumptions you make in your OP to support your claim:

    - you have charged your ult, which means you've been doing things successfully every turn. which means you've been in melee range and not been focused to force disengagement.
    - after not having been focusing you, everyone magically starts shooting at you the moment you pop your ult.
    - you have might for 2 turns following your ult.
    - you have dash up for when your ult is about to fire, but your opponents have none - two turns in a row, no less, and more than once per game, as you posit.
    - your opponents don't know what cover is.
    - your opponents are clumped up (in the multi-target scenario).
    - your opponents aren't breaking line of sight in move phase to avoid your dash on the next turn.
    - your opponents don't move away from you when you drop your ult on yourself, despite it being a full action and allowing only normal movement.
    - your opponents are altogether unable to predict you using your ult, apparently.

    in short, you assume you're playing against your pet goldfish.

    as to your other assumptions:

    "highest survivabililty" - Asana, Rask, Titus, Finn, Aurora, even Elle are all better in that respect.
    "highest mobility" - her mobility is exactly the same as Quark's, and worse than Asana, Titus, Rask, Garrison, Celeste, Lockwood, Grey.
    "borderline unpredictability" - how is a dash with strict conditions in regards of both targeting and landing spot "unpredictable" in any way? I don't see anyone up in arms about Quark's dash, and it's got the exact same conditions. hell, even PuP's dash behaves similarly, does way more damage and autofollows to boot. what gives?
    "lack of reward for proper predictions" - I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. the reward for proper prediction is always the same, regardless of which lancer you're playing: doing bad things to the enemy when they think you won't, or preventing them from doing bad things to you when they think they will.
    "complete shutdowns of enemy ults" - how? with 100 shields on one target? or weaken on the ulting character? as far as I know, 25% less damage doesn't equal a "complete shutdown" - but hey, you're the numbers expert.
    "great chasing and kiting" - again, how? she has no slows (unless you spend 3 points on a mod), no reveals, no knockbacks, no pulls, nothing to give her unstoppable, her gap closer requires line of sight and doesn't restrict target's movement or autofollow, and she can't disengage freely the way any other frontliner can.

    as for her aoe healing, Finn does it better, from a safe distance, and with more potential targets. the only thing Su-Ren has on him is the ability to burst heal 60-ish hp by using two cooldowns.

    ps. Helio hasn't "defined the meta" for quite a while now.


    Numbers don't matter in a vacuum because balance is about how characters measure against each other. Your math here means nothing because of that: Demonstrating imbalance requires demonstrating inequalities amongst character, but you have only mentioned one.

    That's not an argument, that's theoretical exhibition.
    this guy gets it.
    The one thing that could cause cowboys and Indians to join forces is their mutual enemy: dinosaurs.

  7.   Click here to go to the next Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   #7
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    The AR devs are watching all the data.

    Demonstrating imbalance requires demonstrating inequalities amongst character
    This is also very true.

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    BigDataDude, now I'm curious: I assume you guys keep a number of statistics from the game on the back end. Are any of those available to the public? For example, character usage statistics, win rates, mod usage statistics, mod win rates, peak server times?

    If any of those stats are available, it would be pretty awesome if you guys could share them with us on the forums insofar as you are able. (Maybe not on topic for this thread but I cannot send you a PM, so I figured I'd ask here.)

  9.   Click here to go to the previous Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread. This is the last Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by FogRaider View Post
    BigDataDude, now I'm curious: I assume you guys keep a number of statistics from the game on the back end. Are any of those available to the public? For example, character usage statistics, win rates, mod usage statistics, mod win rates, peak server times?

    If any of those stats are available, it would be pretty awesome if you guys could share them with us on the forums insofar as you are able. (Maybe not on topic for this thread but I cannot send you a PM, so I figured I'd ask here.)
    We have tons of stats and a lot have been on our past live streams. I can ask if they would like to do another, no promises

  10. #10


    More damage then all damage dealers, when she suposed to be a support.
    With all that - just a tiny bit less healing, then Quark.
    Nuff said.

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