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  Click here to go to the first Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   Thread: So let's talk about turn 1

  1.   Click here to go to the next Atlas Reactor Team post in this thread.   #1
    Junior Member
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    So let's talk about turn 1

    We made a change that disabled abilities on turn 1.

    We did this to reign in the advantages that certain lancers could get by using long range traps or friendly effects that generate energy. While interesting, many of these strategies had very little downside.

    After playing with this change for a bit, we think it has made the game healthier, but it has also made turn 1 less fun.

    What do you guys think? Are there some things you'd like to see us try with turn 1?

  2. #2
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    I don't feel that turn 1 needs to be "fun" as it's the calm before the storm. It's all about the anticipation rather than the gameplay and also you have to spend time with your team deciding where you're going to go. As such I like it as it is.

    How about just adding some flavor? Like have a few different scripts between freelancers and randomly have one play based on who is on your team, e.g. Your team is Lockwood, Zuki, Helio and Nix. There's a chance Lockwood might talk to Zuki, or Zuki talks to Helio, or nobody talks at all. The characters in Overwatch and Dawngate ( RIP :'( ) do this and it's a nice way to integrate lore in to gameplay.
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  3. #3
    I joined to say I missed turn 1 moves.

    How about some sort of penalty applied to the turn 1 move? Maybe an even shorter movement phase or some type of vision debuff? Maybe a better buff to movement if you don't use an action on turn 1? There was a trade off as well, with nix for example I would save stealth to go in deep after I had spotted the enemy. Also you have to consider the longterm CD management game. You could misplace an ability and not have it when you actually do spot them. Using certain support abilities forced you to commit to following a particular player, etc. There were choices to be made that may be getting understated here.

    The first turn "guess" was an interesting thing to think about in certain matchups. Places that were normally safe to stand weren't anymore. It was fun.

  4. #4
    Well supports usualy got some free energy on turn 1, so giving lets say 5~8 starting energy too supp would balance that out, it was fun using auroras 1 to get same energy on turn1

  5. #5
    I like the change, I think it balances the field for the different lancers. There was several moves that were almost compulsory before (supports getting energy, Pup and Nix going stealth...) that gave a little advantage to these lancers over the ones that had nothing useful to do.

    And regarding the first turn being less fun, I don´t see that as a problem. In the 20 seconds you can talk to other players to see how you are moving (all to the left, I am going solo, etc) and the resolution phase goes really fast.

  6. #6
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    I'm all for it! I hated Nix and PuP players using taunt while stealthing the first round...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willibuster View Post
    We made a change that disabled abilities on turn 1.

    We did this to reign in the advantages that certain lancers could get by using long range traps or friendly effects that generate energy. While interesting, many of these strategies had very little downside.

    After playing with this change for a bit, we think it has made the game healthier, but it has also made turn 1 less fun.

    What do you guys think? Are there some things you'd like to see us try with turn 1?
    I don't like it. It hurts Nix's and PuP's stealth positioning. Rampart can no longer make it to the enemy side of the map quickly with Unstoppable Force. It didn't do anything but annoy me and remove tactics. You didn't even remove it for good reasons. You removed it over the least effective things you could do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beric View Post
    I like the change, I think it balances the field for the different lancers. There was several moves that were almost compulsory before (supports getting energy, Pup and Nix going stealth...) that gave a little advantage to these lancers over the ones that had nothing useful to do.
    Yeah freelancers shouldn't have any differences or advantages. Let's just make them all identical and play chess with nothing but rooks. And that's unbalanced too because some people have a preference for black or white so all the pieces should be beige. It's unfair that Nix can't shoot around corners like Lockwood so if you remove Nix's turn 1 stealth you also have to remove Lockwood's ricochets. After all, it's unacceptable for a freelancer to be able to do anything another can't according to you. Let's nerf all differences until the game just has 1 freelancer with 16 skins.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelmancer View Post
    Yeah freelancers shouldn't have any differences or advantages. Let's just make them all identical and play chess with nothing but rooks. And that's unbalanced too because some people have a preference for black owhite so all the pieces should be beige. It's unfair that Nix can't shoot around corners like Lockwood so if you remove Nix's turn 1 stealth you also have to remove Lockwood's ricochets. After all, it's unacceptable for a freelancer to be able to do anything another can't according to you. Let's nerf all differences until the game just has 1 freelancer with 16 skins.
    Wow, your comment is so out of place that I dont even know how to start. First lets clarify the statements:

    Me: I think that first turn actions give a small advantage to some lancers.
    You: So you are saying that all the lancers should be exactly the same? Thats stupid.

    Flawless logic. Even as a hyperbole it makes no sense.

    I will try to explain again. Some characters got a little advantage and where using the same actions in the beginning of all matches. For example: I play Aurora, I do the same energy winning action in every game. Where is the strategy here? Now that it is not possible Aurora has to decide if she wants to sprint or stay in the back. Where is the nerf there? Is the same with Pup and Nix, they could stealth first turn and then go, now they need to think if they want to stay back and stealth where they cannot be seen or sprint and let the enemies see where they are when they become invisible. More choices mean a more interesting game, not the opposite.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Willibuster View Post
    We did this to reign in the advantages that certain lancers could get by using long range traps or friendly effects that generate energy. While interesting, many of these strategies had very little downside.

    After playing with this change for a bit, we think it has made the game healthier, but it has also made turn 1 less fun.
    Willibuster, just to clarify, are you saying that the change was made due to certain team builds being able to gain an immediate advantage based on their choice of lancers? If so, I think the change is a good move. Teams can still carry out those initial moves, it just means that they'll have to hang back a little more than usual for that turn. Granted, the enemy might choose to charge forward but that's a risky strategy in itself anyway.

    It's a side point but I do really like Wolfbrand's idea of having the lancers chat to each other. I think Evolve is another example of a game that did this well during the initial loads; perhaps it could even be limited to the initial fly-by camera so that people don't feel it's too much / distracting during the actual gameplay.

  10. #10
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    The change was necessary. Aurora in particular was at the mercy of freelancer positioning RNG on turn 1. If the other 3 freelancers line up in a row, she can gain 3x3 = 9 base energy boost from her Shock Therapy

    A - o - o - o

    Say she starts in the middle, she can at most line up 2 freelancers, with 2x3 = 6 energy gain on turn 1.

    o - A - o - o

    A = aurora
    o = other freelancer

    If the two teams start with an Aurora each, and the stars align, one team could gain an unfair advantage before the game even begins.

    Having said that, the game is definitely less fun on turn one because you have less things to do. I like Wolfbrand's idea of some interactions between characters. Are you planning to add emotes?

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